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Scott Chapin – Bicycle Industry Risk Specialist with Marsh and McLennan Insurance Agency

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Specializing in bicycle industry insurance programs.   Bike Shops, Product Liability for manufacturers/suppliers, professional trail building contractors, advocacy groups, and everything in between, Scott is an athlete who lives in the same hometown as the American Birkebeiner Ski Race. He started the Fat Bike Birke, as well as helped to launch a 55-mile fat bike trail system. He is a 12-year board member for the Birke and co-author of the Economic Impact of Trails/ Silent Sports. His current work is endorsed by NBDA, PBMA, Bike Cooperative, QBP, and others.

Meet Scott Chapin.

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Scott Chapin

Tue, 3/23

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bike shops, trail, bike, bicycle, carriers, big, shop, people, ride, McLennan, Scott, industry, Berkey, insurance, marsh, write, year, program, area, coverage

SPEAKERS

Heather Mason, NBDA , Scott Chapin

NBDA   00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National bicycle Dealers Association.

Heather Mason  00:16

Welcome to another episode of bicycle retail radio brought to you by the NBDA. Thank you for listening. If you’re a first time listener, be sure to check out our previous episodes, do us a favor and leave a review. I am Heather Mason MBA president. Today I have Scott Chabon as our guest he is a bicycle industry risk specialist. And he works with Marsh and McLennan Insurance Agency. I’m a big fan. They have been a long supporter of the NBA and we are thankful for that. I got to chat with Scott last week. And I’m really excited about our conversation today. So outside of his day job, Scott is an athlete who lives in the same hometown as the American birkebeiner ski race, something that’s definitely on my bucket list. He also started the fat bike Berkey as well as helped to launch a 55 mile fat bike trail system, which I can’t wait to know more about. He is a 12 year board member for the birkie, a board member for Nika and co author of the economic impact of trails and silent sports. So there’s a lot going on. His work is endorsed by the NBA, the P MBA, the bike collaborative, qbp, and many others. Welcome, Scott.

Scott Chapin  01:35

Oh, thanks for having me.

Heather Mason  01:37

This is like a brainstorm of our conversation. Last time. I was like there’s so much interesting little facts about you. We should do a radio. So thanks.

Scott Chapin  01:47

So be fun.

Heather Mason  01:48

So how’s it been going? Since we caught up last? What have you been busy with?

Scott Chapin  01:52

Oh, it mean works always busy. So I don’t really mind working extra hours. Like we’re where I live in northwestern Wisconsin, we’re in mud season, which is for people in other parts of the country might not understand that term. But that’s the end of winter, beginning of spring. It’s like fake spring full spring. And it’s really not conducive for a lot of outdoor activities. Because the trails are just shouldn’t be riding. So

Heather Mason  02:23

mud season. Oh, that’s rough. I used to live in Lake Placid. And we definitely were not fans of the mud season. So I know like You bet. super impressive athletic resume, you know, we are chatting and you share with me about some of your running experience in your biking experience. And I know you’re a skier as well. How did like is it must be awesome to take your passion for outdoor sports and put that into your, you know, professional environment too.

Scott Chapin  02:53

Yeah, it’s, it’s been good. And I don’t race I’m not as fast as they used to be. I don’t really race much anymore. But you know, my whole, I guess childhood, all the way. You know, through adult life. I’ve been in sports and ran in college and got into Nordic skiing, got into like that mountain bike racing. And just, it’s just been kind of interesting in that it. When I started these bicycle industry insurance programs. Those things were so close to me that I wasn’t even my idea was our CEO was like, why don’t we have a national program in the bicycle industry. That’s where your passion is you’re, you know, you’re doing all those bone volunteering and working in the industry already, you know, indirectly. I’m like, Wow, that’s a great idea. So it wasn’t even my idea. And it’s, you know, it seems like I want to come up with that idea. So, yeah, it’s been it’s fun, because, you know, insurance isn’t exactly exciting. I’ve been doing this for 27 years. And I would say the part about my job that I liked the least is the part that pays me, which is insurance. It’s getting to meet and really help people that have more personal interests than, you know than anything. So yeah, it’s

Heather Mason  04:21

Yeah, I don’t think of insurance as the most like exotic industry, but you have definitely made it fun. And I was on this zoom call. Last night, we had an industry real talk, like invite only author gets you the link on that. But I’m part of what we talked about was just that, that if you know, being that you’re an athlete and you love cycling, you can bring that passion into your career and it gives you equips you with the better tools to make an even bigger impact. So in just under VA being able to understand it’s, it’s no different than why I would say the majority of bike shops on bike shops. Yeah, because of their personal interest. So it’s just a connect on a real level. Okay, so this is good. Before we keep moving forward, I just want to call out to one of our association partners. So this week, Michelle and I had a zoom with Neil Mac of Beeline Connect. Beeline Connect, I had not personally heard that before. I knew the Beeline vans, but Beeline Connect is a free online scheduling tool for bicycle retail owners to check out and implement on their website if they wanted to. And basically, it’s a platform that helps you connect and reach more consumers with their partner fulfillment programs. So head on over to the MBTA website. We have a partner page. You can learn more about Beeline connected there. And thank you, Neil, for being an association member and supporting our organization. All right, so Scott, you’re in the hot seat today.

Scott Chapin  05:53

All right, to the couch, actually.

Heather Mason  05:57

So yeah. Tell me like you live in the hometown of the famous Berkey. What is that? Like? Like? How many people come in? Talk to me about that?

Scott Chapin  06:07

Well, okay, so the Yeah, that’s actually probably how I ended up here. Little I’ll try to, like, make this a quick story. But I have some relatives from Hayward. So I used to come up here as a kid a couple times a year. And when I was in college and done with running eligibility, I got talked into buying some Nordic skis. And then I just decided to sign up for the Bercy. And I had to do a qualifying race. And yeah, so I ended up after I went to graduate school, and the program I was in was kind of changed at Montana State. So I was like, now what am I going to do, and I ended up, I ended up getting out the Wisconsin map. And I crossed out everything south of highway 70. But I kept focusing on Hayward. And then I finally, I just moved here, and I didn’t know really anybody other than a couple relatives, relatives. And so living here, you know, after doing the Berkey, it was kind of like, really cool, just to have a lot of people again, I don’t know anybody, but a lot of people like doing the same thing. So, you know, it’s, it’s pretty exciting. We live like a mile and a half from the Berkey trail and all of our mountain bike and fat bike trail system. And, you know, it’s, there’s always people, you know, doing things here that that are, you know, like, I guess you’d probably be considered like a weirdo if you’re in most parts of the country, and you’re roller skating but it’s like, it’s kind of a normal thing here. So you know, doing the events. And like all the Burkean events, you know, there’s a running race that I helped start to that’s was a trail, national trail, half marathon. So I mean, just doing the Berkey events you and living here, it’s, it’s pretty cool, because it’s all like really in the back in your backyard. And, you know, it’s exciting. I mean, there’s 10 or 11,000 people that do the Berkey ski race, and this year, they did it over five days, and it was obviously smaller and fat, like Berkey was smaller, but on a normal year, it’s, you know, it’s an amazing organization. I’m not on the board anymore, I was on the board for 1212 years or so. Okay, and just the infrastructure that they have, and how well that event, it’s, it’s world class. I mean, it’s, you know, the fundraising capabilities and just the infrastructure that they’re able to raise monies and raise revenues to do you know, he really learned I really learned a lot about events and event coverage and how to how to manage that being on that that board because it’s it is just top notch, it’s unbelievable.

Heather Mason  08:50

It’s definitely been an event that’s always been on my list but just logistics you know, have to come from New York to get out there and then just the unknown the unknown right you I mean, I’ve done Iron Man’s I’ve done a lot of ultrasounds done a lot of mountain biking, but the unknown of getting to an event like that is a little bit intimidating. Like what would you give to someone who’s been considering you know, registering but maybe hasn’t anything? You could give an insider’s point.

Scott Chapin  09:15

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s Don’t be don’t freak out. Hold your hand like so. I think the hardest part about the Berkey besides it’s very difficult race is just, at least for me, like I don’t like big crowd so like just getting your packet You know, there’s like oh my God, this Expo so you just probably like, you know, doing a marathon and you know, similar amount of people, you know, and then getting to the start and making sure you grab the right t I just say for the first one just don’t sweat it, you know, you can just follow everybody. It’s, it’s really not that difficult to do. It’s like once you’re signed up, yeah. No matter what, you’re going to be nervous because it’s it It’s a kind of a just, it’s a huge event. It’s more exciting than nerves. Yeah, you should just do it. It’s

Heather Mason  10:06

like nervous excitement, right?

Scott Chapin  10:09

Total nervous excitement. I don’t think there’s anything to freak out about or be scared, but it’s just, yeah, you’re gonna, you’re probably gonna be like, you know how I am after a pot of coffee, you know, just like, you know, really kind of hyper and it’s just a lot of excitement. And then the energy at the start. It’s just overwhelming. It’s, it’s cool. It’s really exciting.

Heather Mason  10:28

So you got me convinced? So that’s what we’ll do. We’ll have a break. So how did the fat bike Berkey come about? Okay, so

Scott Chapin  10:36

when I was on the board, so this is going back about 10 years ago, you know, I’ve been I was kind of one of the first people in our area, you know, that have a fat bike. There’s a video on my LinkedIn page about the kind of the day that came into my head. Well, we were always thinking, I was always like, God, it’d be so cool to have a race, a fat bike race on the Berkey trail. I biked on it, you know, like, late in the year when you’re when it’s basically the seasons done? And like, God, this is so fast. How fun would this be? And I would say our board at the time, were I’ll just say they were close minded. They were really all about Nordic skiing. And so I but I did talk our director at the time, into, you know, getting it on the agenda at a board meeting, and they said one year you can never have this. I mean, for people that don’t know the birkebeiner ski trail, it’s a 40 foot wide highway that is either up or down. It’s wicked fast, steep downhills, and there’s nothing flat on it. And when they groom it, it’s as hard as concrete and it’s crazy speeds on the downhills. And, and they’re saying, okay, you can do it one year, and I and we’ll just see, because they were concerned was it was it going to wreck the trail, like it really shouldn’t matter. They just really groom it, but so I encourage the board the first year to come and volunteer, because that’s what I wanted. I wanted to see. Have them see how much fun the riders were having? Because I mean, it’s like, and I remember, I was working at one of the aid stations on the first one. And I could hear somebody laughing, coming down the trail and like, what’s this? It was the person that was leading the race was laughing out loud on the downhill, because it was so crazy fast. And I’m like, Yeah, I think you know, that person’s racing all out and laughing. And, and so then it just ballooned from there. So it was a overwhelming success. It didn’t ruin the trail. In fact, if you couldn’t even tell there was an event on there. So yeah,

Heather Mason  12:48

that sounds awesome. So anyone can register for this. And it takes place when it takes place. What time of year.

Scott Chapin  12:55

It’s usually the first or second weekend in March. So it was actually last weekend. Okay.

Heather Mason  13:01

All right. And how many riders usually come?

Scott Chapin  13:04

Well, this year, obviously. Well, I think the biggest year was 1200. So Wow. Yeah, that’s it. That’s a spectacle to see, like all of that, that bikers kind of start rolling out at once. And last year, last week was obviously way down with a lot of people just didn’t want to do it or you know, and then it was sketchy weather. You know, we had a big one meltdown with of snow. So

Heather Mason  13:26

the weather has been a little strange, right, it got really warm, and now it’s cold again. So that’s on my list, too. So I guess I’ll be visiting you quite often.

Scott Chapin  13:35

Yeah, do a two week vacation, you just do both in the same time period. So

Heather Mason  13:41

I could talk about cycling all day long, but I want to flip to a corporate you. So tell us about Marsh and McLennan and how you started to work for the company.

Scott Chapin  13:52

Okay, so, Marsh, and McLennan purchased the company that I previously worked for, which was a you know, pretty big Insurance Agency. They bought us I think 1212 years ago. So Marsha McLennan, so I actually right out of college I got in the insurance industry, and I’ve actually been three employment ploy ers, but same physical location. And yeah, so Marsh and McLennan A lot of people don’t know, means nothing to them. So Marshall McLennan is a subsidiary of Marsh USA. We’re an insurance broker. Global, over 500 offices in the US are the largest insurance broker in the world. And they what I like about Marshall McLennan, which is more of the middle market, which would be most bicycle industry accounts as they kind of allow me to just run with what I what I do and if I want to add things like I have resources to add a program, it adds you know, whatever we need to make to make it work on a on a national basis. So, and that, and that’s really how, how I kind of started with the bicycle industry programs was, you know, working in a kind of rural area, I was a generalist, meaning I was writing all sorts of accounts. And I kept having to drive further and further away to get new accounts. And it just was getting to the point where, like, I can’t drive two hours, three hours away and try to track so we just decided to create a program that’ll be more online and nationally focused. And then of course, there’s, we’ve added several programs to that, that mix. So

Heather Mason  15:36

so when you started with them, they didn’t have retail buy policies, this is something that you started getting.

Scott Chapin  15:41

Yeah, we started it. I mean, again, it was wasn’t my idea. But there was a there was a need back in 2008, I think, you know, I knew what most insurance policies covered. And I knew what, like most bike shops did and there was definitely a disconnect in, in what the insurance carriers with their sort of off the shelf business owners policy, the same one that they would write up office supply store was not really designed for bike shops, bike shops, or have so many unique exposures that that were not properly covered. So we had to tailor it. We took a business owners policy and then added coverage for you know, some of the common things and back then it was like the main common things were bike rental lane, most policies didn’t cover it, chaps are doing it and just thought they had coverage. And then shop ride my ability, you know, your Tuesday night group ride or your Saturday morning women’s ride or whatever it might be. And then coverage for you know, voluntary departure property, which is the fake ID fake credit card, someone test rides a bike, and you never see them again scenario. And of course, since then, it’s morphed as the industry has changed, and there’s all these new exposures. So that’s been nice to have, you know, once you get so much business with a particular carrier or carriers, they they’re more open to listening to what the emerging trends are, and then creating a solution before anybody else does. You know, whether it’s mobile repair or pump ebikes, I mean, it, I can’t, I’ve lost count of all the meetings I’ve had about ebikes. And making sure they understand the emerging trends and what they are and what they’re not, and how to cover them. So it can kind of go on and on as things as things morph and change. We’ve been able to stay way ahead of the curve, like because insurance industry, just insurance companies don’t change very quickly. So you get to like start way in advance.

Heather Mason  17:48

So you’re so Marsh McLennan is constantly like looking at the policy and adjusting it for the current trends as they come forward? That’s Yeah, great. Um, so I guess, all right. I own a shop for a while. And I did go I’m sorry, I’m confessing to you right now with a local insurance agent. But why like, what do they get for it? What would I remembers or bicycle retailers get from you instead of going with their local agent?

Scott Chapin  18:14

Well, one are so the coverages I mean, you go to your local broker, and you can go to the same carriers that we work with, but they’re your policy is not going to have the same coverages. But most importantly, is most brokers and I’ve, I, I’ve lost count how many policies that I’ve helped people fix that, you know, they will just pay the broker may because they don’t work in that space. You know, very often, or maybe just, that’s the only bike shop they write. They don’t know what they don’t know so they don’t know what to ask. So the underwriter just thinks that this is just a just a bike shop whereas you know, when you do our online application, we have probably 20 or 30 additional questions that are specific to bike shops, the questions that you know, a insurance carrier with their standard business owners policy, will not ask about shop rides will not ask you know about the care custody and control will not ask about whether you do buy tours will not be I can go on and on and on and on. So

Heather Mason  19:17

all these things that are so specific to the bike industry, I think, I think as a person who owns the shop, if we could you know as shoppers just take that survey, boom. If you don’t know about this, this is important, right? Like, this is great.

Scott Chapin  19:33

When the E bikes thing is probably the you most I can say I mean we work with virtually every company and I can tell you there’s only three of the ones and those are the three we work with that have any comfort level with any shop selling class three e bikes. So going back two years ago, you know, I could see you know, the big the big brands are Pushing class one and three. And then there’s some class to, of course, in there. But ultimately, you know, we had to start that process because I knew what the trends were. I knew that there, you know, if every carrier, if the proper questions were asked by, you know, just your common insurance broker that doesn’t specialize. If they if they did ask, you know, do you sell a plot? What percent Do you sell of class? One, two, and three? There’s really no, no carriers are really comfortable with that risk the class three except for within our program, but that was a huge, you know, we are underwriters, I actually encourage them to rent a class one and rent a class three e bikes, so they know what they are and what they’re not. And that was a good, good exercise with good results. So

Heather Mason  20:49

yeah, so shops that participate with Marshall. McLennan, will they have questions when they call you directly? Or is there? Yeah, that’s pretty cool. Because you can get real time advice from someone who’s, you know,

Scott Chapin  21:01

yeah. And so, yeah, so my team, like I have, I have some support staff that only worked basically on the on the bike shop program. So they are like building questions and things of that sort. There are certain particular t shirts, I don’t even have the ability to do either of those on my system. But, you know, those questions that are technical in nature, or I’m thinking about doing this additional service, you know, what are your thoughts? Is that something, you know, that can provide sort of high level, high level advice about what you should and shouldn’t do to manage the risk? And the expectation? So?

Heather Mason  21:44

Yeah, but I think, you know, since you’re having these conversations, I would ask you then what is like the trending or like the number one thing that you see most shops doing wrong in terms of liability protection?

Scott Chapin  21:55

Well, it that’s, I would say, it’s really based in the service department. So I had done the presentation for the service queues service summit, I’m doing another one. And it was really focused on sort of the risk management for repairing and assembling building up bikes. That’s where we see, that’s where we see all the big claims. I mean, most common claim, obviously would be, you know, a smash and grab, like, their Diamond doesn’t right now, especially with supply issues. And stolen bikes being worth more than they were but ultimately, the big claims the 250,000, the $2 million claims are all specific to bodily injury claims done caused by faulty work in the service department. So what shops are often doing wrong, is just in how they do the record keeping, you know, working on things, maybe they shouldn’t, not having good hiring or training procedures. So when we manage risk, I like to, I like to work backwards off of, Okay, let’s say you’re getting sued because somebody got injured because you didn’t repair something properly. What will the personal injury, the plaintiff’s attorney ask you in court? And can you answer those questions properly? If so, they’re going to ask you questions about your hiring, they’re going to try to make your shop look like you’re irresponsible, that lay let you let up, you know, a new, a new mechanic do the most complex repairs, they’re going to, they’re going to ask for your service records, they’re going to want to make sure that archivable service records, if you can’t, you can’t produce those, you’re likely going to lose it’s going to get really ugly. And then just you know, supervision and even things you know, specific to, you know, having your tools tested for the proper torque spec. So if your if your tools aren’t regularly tested, and some there was an allegation that this injury was caused by this repair, because it was under torque to over torque. You might even get asked Have you have you had that calibrated lately? I mean, who would have thought that but that’s what happens if talked to enough attorneys? Pretty common question. So I would say that’s the thing that our industry, probably the bicycle industry needs to mimic what the auto industry does. In that, you know, you go get your, you get your car repaired, and they will have you sign off. It’s like okay, I noticed there’s you only have 10% left on your brake pads. You need to sign here that we you I have told you this and whether you’ve refused or accepted, you know, the repair and it’s a good way to write service, by the way so yeah, I think that’s the biggest issue

Heather Mason  24:57

is see it seems like a very simple But I’m listening to you and I thank you This is tremendous conversation. When I worked at a shop, we had to repair that we I was managing the shop that we didn’t do correct and the person, the front stumble to loosen and the person flipped over the handlebars and pretty bad injury to the face. And when, you know, the lawyers came in, they asked, Do you have a bike build checklist? Do you have a checklist that your mechanics are signing off that they did all the all these things? And another just like you said, another thing was, do you have a torque wrench? And when has it been calibrated? Same exact thing. And so we’ve got an advocate, you know, and I had to retrain myself almost every day, remind the staff, you have to complete these forms, you have to do this. And then we kept we had to keep the records. But it became so important. And it didn’t, it didn’t become important until we had a claim that was so that’s what we want to we want to let people know that. Or do you have a claim? Right?

Scott Chapin  25:54

Right? You mean because if you have a claim, like right now we’re in a what’s called a hard insurance mark, and I had a I had a prospect who had a pretty bad claim due to a faulty work. And there, I had tried to get them, they weren’t with our program, they got non renewed by their insurance company because of it. And their premium went from because I couldn’t get it back into our program, because it was still an open claim that their premium went up from 3000 to 20,000. Wow. Yeah. And that was like, I went, we went to every market that would write that. And, you know, being in our program, you have a little more latitude, if you do have a claim, because they’re kind of treating it as one big conglomerate one big massive premium, but, you know, in this case, you know, I felt terrible, and I’m like, you know, like, there’s nothing I could do about it at that at that point. Because, you know, they weren’t with with us and, but that there’s your implication, like, Well, why does it matter? Well, I’m sorry, a lot of, you know, $17,000 additional insurance premium that that for a small shop that that might be a good chunk of your profit, or

Heather Mason  27:08

so um, we talked about, like, analyzing credit card fees, right? Like renegotiating contracts, like how often and sorry, if I’m naive here, but how often kind of shop like a Rena go, or, you know, shop insurance policies or renegotiate, you know, how often, um,

Scott Chapin  27:25

I mean, we actually being that, we I tried to look at coverage, what carriers will do the proper coverage. And there’s really only a few, and we will automatically take a look at take a look at going to the other carriers, if we see a disproportionate increase. And, you know, being that there’s really only one of our carriers, that is writing shops, all shops, meaning even an E bike specialty store, unless there’s a big increase that’s disproportionate to the industry, we really want to keep everybody with the same carrier, when so what happens is, if you and we see this with contractors a lot because they’re used to having to bid every job, right, so they’re think that’s what they should do with their insurance. But when the underwriters look at the loss rums, I get a copy of the claims, and they’re with five companies in six years. They don’t even take that account seriously. Because they’re like, well, the most the longest I’m ever going to keep this account is one year, because every year they shop it, and they’re switching for a nickel. And in our case, being that we both were obviously very competitive on premium being a large brokers economies of scale, but we need to make sure that that the coverage and exposures are covered properly. And, and there’s few carriers that are doing that. So we try to keep them all with the right company for coverage. And yeah, I could go to Western mutual and maybe save you 50 bucks, but if you’re not covered for half the things you do, it’s I wouldn’t even recommend it because it’s a errors and omissions hazard for me because you’re not covered for what you do.

Heather Mason  29:11

But Scott, like what if I was a bike shop owner right now and I was with a local company like that I come to you and change my appearance or, and any time it doesn’t matter do

Scott Chapin  29:22

it? Yeah, you can do it at any time. I mean, I would say half of the accounts that I write were, the reason we’re switching is more because they’re not covered for something or they have concerns or they have an exposure or they’re starting to sell ebikes or whatever it might be and we’re we do it in the middle of the term and we’re most of the time we’re less costly even with the better coverage.

Heather Mason  29:46

So Scott when you onboard a new account or when you’re working with a new accounts you go through and like you know we’re talking about you’re talking about like the service tips about like the torque wrench in the in the checklist, but do you go through and like give them pointers for their whole shop of where They can excel. So they’re, you know, minimizing the risk.

Scott Chapin  30:03

Yeah. And sometimes a lot of times, if I have these conversations, and we have an online application, we go over it. And usually when we’re going over the application together, that’s when we start asking these additional questions or clarifications. And that’s a really good time to kind of bring up some of those subjects. And then a lot of my clients that I’ve had for a long time, they, you know, they just call me out of the blue, like, you know, so I’m always getting things bounced off of me, like, what do you think about this? How could we improve on this? Here are my concerns? And so do I do as much, you know, consultation, I actually prefer doing the consultation than the insurance part of it. Because that’s like, so, you know, I’ve done it for so long. So I’d rather do the consultation, but I, I have to write policies to get paid.

Heather Mason  30:54

So it’s, yeah, it’s part of it. Right. But you tell me that you have, like professional trail builder program, like, do you have other programs for the bicycle industry?

Scott Chapin  31:03

Yeah. So we, we have, I guess, three sort of official programs, of course, the bike shop insurance program, and then we have one for product liability program for bicycle manufacturers and suppliers. And that could be, you know, variety, you know, of sizes, anything from, you know, a startup to a publicly traded company, we’ve we have tons and tons of, and then globally, we so we’re global. So I like I just wrote a, you know, we, we just wrote out overseas factory in Europe, with our Marsh, one of our Marsh Europe offices, and we do product liability. So we came up with a lot of foreign carrier, foreign manufacturers and suppliers will handle the product liability stateside, because the European companies, for example, they those insurers don’t want to write in North America, because it’s so litigious. So that’s, that’s one of our programs, the others for the professional trill contractors, and I’m sure most shop owners, if you’re an area where there’s mountain biking, kind of realize that the advocacy organizations have sort of changed their thinking, instead of actually building and building trails, the local in Book Club chapter, they’re actually becoming fundraising organizations. And then because the expectation of the riders coming to their areas is so high, they’re, they’re having to hire professional trail building contractors. And there’s, there’s several 100 of these professional trail building contractors. So that that is, um, you know, that’s a growing program. And it’s, it’s so it’s still, it’s really in its infancy, we, we write some really big ones with 70 full time employees. in there, there’s really only a couple companies that, again, they’re comfortable with that exposure, simply because we’ve been working with them for long enough and trying to help them understand what they do and what the what the liability hazards are, because it’s a really, really unique type of type of exposure. And then we do anything and everything in between, you know, we wrote some of the first bike share systems in the US. And then all sorts of quirky things that are, you know, with micro mobility, so, pretty much anything, I get referred for all sorts of crazy things that involve bicycles. So

Heather Mason  33:39

sounds like you guys are really a stand out like supporter of our industry. So I think everyone’s applauding your efforts right now. So now I’m thinking about trail building, and I’m thinking about that 55 minute mile fat bike trail system. Where is that? So you were instrumental and like, kind of building this?

Scott Chapin  33:56

Yeah, it’s, it was a group of us. So again, go back like 10 years ago, and there’s maybe a dozen of us locals that were like, like, fat biking is really cool. We have fat bikes, but we really don’t have good places to ride that are groomed. So we actually started a kind of a, just called a club. They were nothing when you when you weren’t like a 501 C, we’re just like, we called ourselves like banana cog and fat bike club. And, and we had a couple friends that had snowmobiles, and we’re good at welding and, and, like, volunteered to groom and so we started we had a meeting and we needed to raise some money and we literally pass the hat around and raised like, I think like $1,000 in the meeting or, you know, just want this to happen. Here’s my, my golf club membership and you know, here’s $500 and we bought some more equipment, and then that we started with like, 10 miles a trail. One of our existing trail systems we got the okay to groom in the winter and then started adding more. And then finally our local advocacy organization which is Kamba SRA Oregon area mountain bike Association, who kind of became more official, and they want to sort of add in that, that into the services and now we have cash, but that we have five different groomers by different snowmobiles and drummers, and then volunteers, and we have some paid staff. So it’s 55 miles of groomed trail. So it’s a huge system. And then I don’t count the trails on our, in our backyard, but those are private. But yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. To see and, and now, you know, we just get out and get a lot of visitors. And, you know, it’s, it’s a lot, it’s very labor intensive. But you know, we’re asking you right in the middle of the woods on, you know, yeah, sidewalk

Heather Mason  36:05

55 miles, that is like no joke. That’s a solid effort. So um, I think these longer trail systems for me, definitely as an endurance mountain biker are super appealing. So thank you for that. More trials, more positive places to ride.

Scott Chapin  36:19

And I mentioned the, the gravel, they tell you about the gravel mapping project that I helped with,

Heather Mason  36:27

briefly, but please tell me more.

Scott Chapin  36:29

Yeah. So again, a lot of the trail building organizations are. And I mean, I think ours was probably the first where we, we had recognized that not everybody, not everybody wants to ride single track every day, if they’re visiting the area, or even locals, and our biggest fear, one of our fears, where people people’s fears are getting lost, like in our national forests, like, I mean, you can go like, all the way in the middle of up on gravel from where I am. And I’ve been, I’ve been actually promoting gravel riding through a Facebook page. And then we decided that maybe we need to kind of make a make some maps and have them vetted. So last quarter was the last two summers ago, we took some of my favorite routes. So there’s like 36 routes for different starting areas, three different distances per you know, three or four different distances per kind of location. And we created a vetted, so we could do a paper map that you could download, like a big area map, you could do a cluster map of, you know, this particular area in clam lake or Drummond. And then we have all the GPS files, so you can just download the files. And I would say that this is pretty exciting. Because when we would go riding in the middle of nowhere, where I’ve never seen a bicycle, I’d see tracks, I’m like, wow, people must be looking at these maps. And then I started running into people, like, run into rich tower from QBP. I’m like, this is so great. You’re like in the middle of nowhere. I’m like, Okay, this is it. Oh, it and I think other organizations need to do this, because the biggest fear is getting lost. I mean, it’s scary, especially going into a new area. And, and now it’s just follow your GPS. And you know, you want to ride 40 miles, here’s 40 mile loop. So that’s pretty cool.

Heather Mason  38:30

Mapping systems are definitely like, I know, I when I travel, I go visit a lot of trails and having trail forks, I feel very confident. But having a great mapping system is key. But so building trails and having events like Berkey probably have a great economic impact on your area and community. I know that you co authored what was Tell me what Tell me again, a couple

Scott Chapin  38:53

things, economic impact of silence sports enthusiasts, so I co authored that with some folks at the University of Wisconsin and then an economic impact of second homeowners, which I kind of tied the two together into some presentations that I’ve done all throughout the US. Mostly, I’m just the general, generally on the economic impact of trails for our community.

Heather Mason  39:17

I think that anyone who has an opportunity to talk with you can get a lot. You have a lot of little great tidbits of information and Nuggets to offer. And you’re also on the Nikah board, which is fabulous to me, I don’t know how you have time to do all this. What are you seeing with Nika and ways? You know, right now we’re looking to really engage these new riders and get new people into the sport. Talk to me about your role and

Scott Chapin  39:41

yeah, so Nika, you know, continues to grow and then to kind of there’s growth year over year with the existing leagues. And then of course, trying to add new ones in a COVID year last year was really kind of kind of strange. You know, that some of the things that I think are really Cool, really trying to engage young girls in a girl’s gender in writing, because there’s still a disproportionate amount. And what I found really interesting over the last couple years is we started this adventure programming. And that’s something that I sort of like, personally passionate about, because, you know, that’s, that’s me, I like I like that. And there’s a crazy amount of percentage of kids, that really, they go to practice every day, they have no interest in doing a race, but they want to ride their bikes with our friends. And so sort of this adventure programming, and there’s different Pennsylvania’s got a really cool one. There’s a really cool one in Michigan, a 906 Adventure team, you know, doing stuff. We’re like, we’re gonna see if we can climb up this hill, and then we’re gonna pick blueberries like that, like, I was always very competitive. But like, my brain, like, even back when I was a kid, I’d be like, Yeah, I just want to like, go like, see if I can get up this hill and pick blueberries. And so I like, I really like where that’s going. Because I think so what I see with like, friends that have kids is, you know, when they’re really into racing, they may or may not continue that. But it seems like if you’re just inherently ended, like adventure and the outdoors, you’re probably going to do it, you’re probably going to more likely to do it the rest of your life. And of course, that’s great for the bicycle industry, because it’s more butts on bikes. So yeah, Nike has to it’s a, it’s a really cool, cool organization. And, yeah, it’s a it’s a bunch of time, but it’s, you know, a great board. And, you know, it’s, I just wish I had that when I was a kid. So that’s why I’m on the board.

Heather Mason  41:52

Yeah, my daughter is involved. And it’s a really great, great thing for kids. Alright, so not to flip it back over to the work side, but I just want to give our retail retailers who are listening just a little bit more advice. I’m personally, you know, this past year was, you know, very interesting the way that retailers adapted to COVID. Is there any post COVID? Or? I mean, I guess we’re I guess we’re still there. But any liability concerns anything with insurance that people should be thinking about? I, you know, it didn’t give you a heads up, I was gonna ask you this one, some kind of,

Scott Chapin  42:26

you know, it’s interesting. So when COVID began, you know, a lot of my calls were, a lot of my calls were really about thinking when the when the assumption was made, that they were going to have to close down, which, of course, we know, other than in a few states like New Jersey, they didn’t, you know, the concerns were over business income, and whether a, you know, pandemic or really a communicable disease exclusion, if that would apply. And that’s a case. While we’re already well, beyond that. I don’t see there being any issues. You know, like a specific COVID. Are there any liabilities that that that may occur? I mean, there’s still I think the jury’s still out with whether there’ll be any personal injury or employment, unemployment, employers lot of type of claims against retailers, if and let’s just say an employee got sick, or a customer got sick, because you let them in their store and somebody got infected. You know, nobody knows how these if, if and how, you know, I don’t think bike shops are really, at that much of a risk as, as other industries. There just isn’t any, there’s no case law, I don’t really know, anything that’s going on in that world. So, you know, I think right now, we know the biggest issues for bike shops are just directly related to COVID but not the disease. COVID It’s just supply issues and, and employee burnout, and all the things I keep hearing about over and over and over, you know, people are tired and, and I think the outdoor industry in general is going to keep growing. So it’s, that’s, that’s what I see happening.

Heather Mason  44:11

I agree with you so just to rewind for one second. So there’s no like form or protocol in place that you know, from insurance companies that bicycle retailers need to, you know, have disinfectant when people come in the door, there’s no set standard for dealing with

Scott Chapin  44:28

operations. I mean, it it’s really just like, whether it’s, you know, your local or state health department. They’re really the insurance industry is just like, like anything if it’s if it’s really not about the insurance, they’re gonna go. And they want you to just use sort of the recommended with the recommendations of an organization that actually specializes in that. I mean, they’re not most shops aren’t big enough. Are you really going to be getting OSHA pounding on the door, but that’s a whole other subject. And our risk managers or our safety consultants are actually better at knowing what those are. But yeah, for the for the most part, it’s just whatever is recommended. You’re not going to get into because there’s not there’s not a liability. There’s not liability coverage for that. So the insurance industry, really, they can’t really mandate that you do something, when it’s not even covered in the proper policies. So.

Heather Mason  45:29

And the other thing that comes often to mind, and I know, because I used to lead group rides for my shop, you know, seven days a week, pretty much we’re always going out, it did a great things for building community, but the liability of leading a group ride, it’s not always covered under your insurance, correct?

Scott Chapin  45:46

Yeah, I mean, most, I would say, virtually every carrier excludes that we cover it. And obviously, the claim scenario you’re trying to protect yourself against is if somebody gets injured, and I would say you may be really good friends with your customers, but you may not be really good friends with their spouse who’s ticked off if they get injured and can’t work. And then there’s also potential for subrogation. So somebody gets injured, your health insurance or disability insurance carrier will like, well, where did you get hurt? While I was on a group ride? Well, Where was that? Okay, we’re gonna go and try to recoup some costs. So but I would say that the biggest liability with these group rides is, you know, again, how do you answer the personal injuries? attorneys question, the question will be, why did you pick that route? Isn’t there a safer route? So you have to kind of be able to think about that as like, you know, why did you go on highway two, when highway seven clearly goes kind of in a similar direction with less traffic. So it’s really it’s just common sense. You want you want to be safe as the ride leader, you want your, your customers be safe. So you know, you have to use common sense on where you take and where you suggest. The rides. So it’s very important.

Heather Mason  47:02

So many things to think about Scott, this is this has been really eye opening for me. So what this year what’s next for you? What’s on your agenda this year?

Scott Chapin  47:12

Oh, let’s see. I will. Yeah, just I think it’s gonna be a busy work gear and, and couple vacations are supposed to be in North Carolina. But I recovering from my broken foot. So yeah, I think I’m just gonna be getting me dizzy with work and in trying to get out and play every day a little bit. That’s, that’s sort of my mo so

Heather Mason  47:38

um, so in prepping for this conversation you said I can talk all day? Don’t be shy. Is there anything? I didn’t ask you? Maybe that’s super important that I that we you want to add in here?

Scott Chapin  47:50

I think I think we I think he asked some good questions. I don’t really have anything too exciting to add, but I can’t talk all day. So

Heather Mason  47:59

Scott, if people listening want to get a hold of you, I know there’s a link off the MBTA website. Is there any Do you have a direct email you want to share? Yeah,

Scott Chapin  48:09

so my and you can if you just look up Marshall McLennan bike shop insurance program, it’s all over I got videos and videos on the site and all over the internet and articles that are written but my email is Scott.chapin@MarshMMA.com so S C O T T . C H A P I N at MarshMMA.com and otherwise, you can just call my direct line 715-634-6513. So that’s how you get a hold of me.

Heather Mason  48:41

Scott, Can people just if they have questions, if they like it, just they can just call you and you just had it out with golf?

Scott Chapin  48:46

Yeah, most of my most My days are mostly like lots of 15 minute meeting so I normally can take calls in between. So

Heather Mason  48:56

Scott, you have been awesome. I know. Not only speaking for the MBA, but the work you do with people for bikes and the professional bike mechanic Association and the bike cooperative. You’re an amazing soul. You’re really your business attitude and the ways you’ve been instrumental and your community is very top notch. So it’s been my pleasure to get to know you. And I know we’re going to continue to work closer together. So yeah,

Scott Chapin  49:20

no, thank you. Appreciate that. It’s nice to hear. Thank you.

Heather Mason  49:24

So listeners, that is it. Thanks, Scott for joining us. I invite those listening to connect with me and come on bicycle, retail, radio and share your story. Lots of love for our industry. There’s lots of great webinars and member networking meetings that are coming up. So check the NBDA website. share this episode with your friends and on social media and we appreciate your support and for you listening. And with this we go Thanks.

Scott Chapin  49:51

See ya. Bye. Bye.

NBDA   49:53

This has been bicycle retail radio by the National bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on men ship and member benefits, join us@nbda.com

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

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