Upscaling Retail Practices to Meet the Needs of Larger-Bodied Riders w/Kailey Kornhauser
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Upscaling Retail Practices to Meet the Needs of Larger-Bodied Riders w/Kailey Kornhauser
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NBDA President Heather Mason sat down with Kailey Kornhauser to talk candidly on how we can upscale our practices to meet larger-bodied riders. Kailey Kornhauser, a cycling advocate doing work to create more body size inclusivity in all types of bicycling and recently featured in the Shimano film “All Bodies on Bikes”, talks with us about her journey and lends advice to retailers, suppliers, and riders alike.
Listen in to learn how to pop the lid off the term “cyclist” and get resources and education on how we can continue to engage riders of all sizes, shapes, colors, and backgrounds. Make every person’s journey into and onward through our sport the most transformative possible.
Change starts with us. This interview is for retailers, suppliers, riders, advocates, and all of us who fit anywhere in between.
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Upscaling Retail Practices to Meet the Needs of Larger-Bodied Riders w/Kailey Kornhauser
Tues, 7/13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
bike, cyclist, people, bodies, bike shop, work, retailers, larger, riders, ride, biking, cycling, shop, uncomfortable, store, bicycle, person, pedals, thinking, size
SPEAKERS
Heather Mason, NBDA , Kailey Kornhauser
NBDA 00:10
You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National bicycle Dealers Association.
Heather Mason 00:16
Welcome to a very special episode of bicycle retail radio brought to you by NBDA. I am NBDA President Heather Mason. While we typically stick to an audio recording of our podcasts, I have asked today’s guests for the privilege of recording the conversation so we can share with the industry in multiple formats. The guest and topic for today’s episode are very near to my heart, with an industry working tirelessly on inclusivity and accommodation for diversity and ridership. I am hopeful retailers and the like will find the conversation today of great value. Joining me today is Kaylee kornhauser. She is a PhD candidate studying outcomes and power dynamics of collaborative forest governance in the state of Oregon. She is also a cycling advocate doing work to create more body size inclusivity and all types of bicycling. As an advocate she has written articles and hosted workshops on the topics of body size inclusivity and cycling and was most recently featured in the Shimano film all bodies on bikes. This conversation is about her journey and helping retailers offer incredible service while meeting the needs of larger body riders. Welcome, Kaylee. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, man. It’s been a couple weeks since we spoke since we first connected and I’m really excited for the conversation today. I’ve been thinking tightly overrides, and on runs and hikes the past couple of weeks about all the positiveness that is going to come out of our conversation today and how something like this has never been done before. So I thought First, we will jump into the film. And so I think I looked last night. And there’s like a little over 220,000 views of video that Shimano made all bodies on bikes. And I watched it myself. I’m a huge fan. And it’s literally changing the idea of what it means to be a cyclist. And it follows you and your friend on an incredible bikepacking trip. I mean, how are you feeling about this response?
Kailey Kornhauser 02:12
It’s amazing. I hoped it would be as positive as it is. But it’s kind of exceeded expectations. Just how how much positive feedback and industry response and individual response that we’ve gotten. It’s been like, it’s just been amazing. And from all all corners of biking from people who are brand new, and people who have biked forever from Pro racers, I would never expect that this message to connect with certain people, but it really had so just been like overwhelming and positive.
Heather Mason 02:44
I remember when the video first came out, and I run a woman’s cycling team. And I just heard like rumors like have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen it? So it’s definitely something that hasn’t been done before. And it’s caused the industry like off guard, and the other response has been incredible. Thank you for sharing your journey in that video. That was incredible. Thanks for watching. Alright, so last we spoke, I just want to give a little bit of our viewers and listeners a little bit about you. I think last time we spoke you were planning for a wedding or Yes, a little bit about like, Who are you and where are you located? And what is your day to day now?
Kailey Kornhauser 03:23
Yeah, I live in Corvallis, Oregon, and I am a PhD student here at Oregon State University. And I study forestry and I work in in a National Forest. So I spend a lot of time in the forest. But I also spend a lot of time on my bike. That’s what I like to do. That’s how I get to work and the grocery store and also how I have fun. So pretty awesome to live in a place where I can access biking, you know, mountain biking and gravel biking in the forest, right from my, from my front door. So that’s kind of the day to day. Yeah. That’s kind of it.
Heather Mason 04:02
I have not I was totally interrupting you. But I haven’t liked them. And I totally want to come and ride sometime. I’ve all I’ve heard is incredible things about
Kailey Kornhauser 04:10
you gotta come up and I’ll take you out. It’s like, unbelievable. I can’t I moved here from Utah. And it has, you know, you just got amazing biking too, but this is a little bit more my style. So I really feel lucky that I ended up here for grad school. It’s kind of like Wonderland.
Heather Mason 04:27
So I feel like now I need to know how did the cycling like the passion for cycling begin?
Kailey Kornhauser 04:32
Yeah, I biked you know, as a little kid like everybody. A lot of people learn how to bike around the neighborhood. But I grew up in suburban Chicago. Vikings not really like a big thing or at that time it wasn’t. And so then in college, moved to Utah and I didn’t have access to a car and I didn’t live near a grocery store and I had to get to work and all of a sudden I was like, Okay, I kind of need a bike to get to these places. So Started out, like I just needed to get around and commute. But I was lucky to have a few friends who, in college were really into biking and kind of helped me transition biking from just being like a way to get around town to something where I was like, wow, this is really fun. And it’s not just for like little kids. And so like, then I started thinking, oh, maybe I want a bike and knew a couple people who were doing like kind of early days bike packing, and also bike touring. And I think I thought like, well, I’m never gonna be really fast. Like, I was already a person in a larger body. Like, I was already like a backpacking and kayaking guide, and I was always the slowest one at that. And I was like, I’m gonna be slow at this, but if I go far, I maybe I could be one, you know, pretty good at being like the furthest or like the best endurance athlete at biking, I guess. So I got really into like overnight cycling. And that’s kind of where I felt like it really became this like intense passion, rather than just a way to get to work which I love getting to work that way. But it’s it’s been like, obviously now kind of consumed my life,
Heather Mason 06:08
about cycling can have so many different facets in our in our life. And I’m totally relating when you’re talking about the insurance part of it, because I’m with you on that, like when I was trying to raise like pro across country, you know, but to go long distances, it was more of like a challenge for myself. You know, it’s like a personal really
Kailey Kornhauser 06:25
hurt. Yeah, seeing how long I could go. And it wasn’t in like a race setting just like, wow, how far on a map. Could I get? Like the first time I wrote across a state? and was like, wow, I wrote across, there was Iowa. And I was like, wow, I wrote across this whole state, like on a map. It looks like a pretty big distance, you know, and like, I mean, I didn’t win anything or break any records, but it was still like, wow, a big accomplishment.
Heather Mason 06:51
You do rad Bryce did yeah.
Kailey Kornhauser 06:53
I was my first multi day I had done some one night things. But that was my first multi day ride. And that kind of kicked off. It definitely showed me what I was capable of. And if you’ve gone to RAGBRAI you know, it’s just like so many different types of people and so inclusive and it’s just like a rolling party. So that also kind of helped me realize like, Oh, I don’t have to be a lance armstrong spandex guy to ride a bike. Like I hadn’t really known anything else until that. So that was pretty eye opening.
Heather Mason 07:29
Yeah, that I haven’t done that one. But I definitely it’s on the list. And, you know, as we’re chatting here, I’m just thinking about like, one of my favorite things to do is like open up paper maps and put them on the table and be like, Okay, I’m gonna do this loop today. And, you know, I think as like cyclists, and I know a lot of other women cyclists like that is instead of racing, it’s like choosing your own adventure and meeting those goals. Right? Isn’t that awesome to do? Awesome. Like,
Kailey Kornhauser 07:53
yeah, picking routes I love I love just like finding lines on a map and hoping it works out like especially with gravel biking, it’s like it can be like a real crapshoot. Like you just kind of hope that the roads are bikable it’s all on the adventure, right?
Heather Mason 08:07
Like an adventure. I’m so with you on that we should definitely ride. So let’s talk about the advocacy part. So you’re cycling, you’re finding that you’re enjoying it more? How did? How did that start? And where are you advocating for larger bodies on bikes prior to the Shimano film,
Kailey Kornhauser 08:26
they got into advocacy right after reg Bri, I wrote my first piece, it was really just like a private piece of writing as part of my master’s program, about the experience of being a larger person riding a bike. And it was my first time ever writing about being fat. And that’s a word I used to identify myself is that I’m a person in larger body and I use the word fat to identify that. And I did that for the first time in writing there and felt like this sense of kind of like liberation, I guess or freedom from from identifying that way. And then I kept writing and got the opportunity through Instagram to write an article for Bicycling magazine, about being a person in a larger body, and bikepacking and that uncover Kaley
Heather Mason 09:14
when she like yeah, that
Kailey Kornhauser 09:19
ended up being the cover story. So then from there, I felt like I got all these opportunities to do things like host workshops, teach classes, I met Marley blonsky through Instagram around kind of around the time I started writing about my experiences and she was doing the same. She’s the other cyclists in the all bodies on bikes film. So we started working together and doing workshops together and then that’s kind of when we got the opportunity to make the film and I could leave it there for now.
Heather Mason 09:49
Yeah, I was gonna ask you How did that feel? I that’s my next question.
Kailey Kornhauser 09:54
Yeah, so right up to the magazine cover came out. I have a couple friends from college. You are filmmakers. And one of them is a director. And he reached out and said, You know, I think this would be a great topic for a film. I’d love to film you and Marley giving a workshop. And this is all pre COVID, when we were planning on traveling around giving workshops and hosting group rides, and so the film was really going to be about that. But then, of course, COVID happened right around the time when Shimano agreed to fund and make the film happen. And so we had to really change gears. And so we ended up saying, Let’s do a bikepacking trip and and do what we can, given the circumstances. And so my friend, the director, and then two other producers came up and met me and Marley in Corvallis. And we, the five of us did what we could to be safe, we all quarantined before and then met only outside. And the fortunate thing about biking is so many of us know is that it is outside and pretty spaced out. So we were able to be pretty safe and then isolated. The one we had to be inside. So we made it happen.
Heather Mason 11:03
I mean, what an amazing journey like,
Kailey Kornhauser 11:05
could you ever have foreseen that you’d be making a film that would be so wild? Like viewed right, like crazy where our journey takes us? So the workshops you were doing so they were in stores to help people, they explained to me what the workshops are, yeah, we do a bunch of different workshops. Some of the workshops are geared at the public, and different versions of the public, just general audiences, or people who are getting into cycling for the first time. But we also do workshops for companies. We do workshops on marketing, like how to how to market and create an inclusive culture for people in larger bodies, and people of all sizes. And then we also do workshops for people who work in stores, and how they should interface with people in larger bodies and tips and ideas about how to make that a more comfortable space for everybody. So we’ve kind of you know, the workshops, we started with just one or two. And now since the film, we’ve been doing much, many more workshops, and many more types of workshops as we go.
Heather Mason 12:09
I’m imagining and, you know, I really wanted to chat with you today. Because I feel like, you know, out of our initial conversation, we you and I came to collectively that we could really have a great conversation on how retailers can make their store more welcoming to larger body riders. And I you know, there’s something back to the film, just the term cyclists what a cyclist says, I feel like the film has really opened this up for discussion, and the industry is looking at it different. I think that definition needs to evolve. But there’s a quote and I know other publications have picked up on this like early in the movie, or in the film that said to be a cyclist, you just have to be a person riding a bike. Being fast is not what makes you an experienced rider. And I mean, that’s true. It could be anyone’s a cyclists, right. Like, it needs to evolve. And I’m so happy that we’re having this conversation and that we’re now seeing new riders coming into the sport. So hopefully it’ll allow the term cyclists to evolve. It’s not just someone kitted up racing like the Tour de France, right?
Kailey Kornhauser 13:07
Yeah. And so many of us like already rode bikes, and just didn’t consider ourselves cyclists like when I commuted to work I and I still do, but when I was only doing that I was still a cyclist, but I wouldn’t have ever called myself a cyclist, or thought of myself as part of some bike community. So I think expanding that word, and meeting people where they’re at if they don’t think they’re a cyclist, okay, well, you’re a person who rides a bike, you’re still you know, you’re still part of this community to even if you don’t want to call yourself a cyclist, because I know there’s some some people have an aversion to that word, I believe we can make it more inclusive.
Heather Mason 13:47
I’m with you. And, um, you know, we’ve been talking so much about how bicycle retailers take such an active role in the transformation of a person’s journey. Like they walk into a bike shop, and they want to be come a cyclist, they want to ride a bike, they want to experience the thrill that you and I experienced. And so a retailer can make it or break it literally on the first visit, right? Like I want to dive into you know how retailers can enhance the riders experience in some of the ways that you think you’re that you would help retailers to move that needle forward. But I just want to think back to maybe some of your experiences walking into bike stores or your overall experience with bicycle retailers and finding gear for larger bodied cyclists. Can you give me some thoughts there about what you’ve experienced in the past? Possibly?
Kailey Kornhauser 14:34
Yeah, you know, my first time buying a bike as an adult was at a bike collective, like a nonprofit, the Salt Lake Bicycle Collective, and that, you know, bike collectives and bike nonprofits I think in general, have done a lot of work to make an inclusive feeling space and part of that is like the price of the use bikes is is cheaper. So that you know, it’s College student I could afford it. But also they just like they are there with tools, and they’re ready to teach you how to do things. And for me, that was like the level I was going to be comfortable at as a college student. But when it came time for me to buy my first big girl bike, like my I wanted to buy so badly, like a surly steel bike, it was like part of the bike culture I was in was that people rode like cool steel bikes, and I wanted to like be in it. And so finding the right shop, like I was pretty intimidated by going into a bike shop is like I don’t know really much about bikes. I don’t consider myself yet a cyclist, whatever that means. But I was lucky to have a few friends who helped point me in the right direction to a shop in Salt Lake, where I got my bike and there I mean, if I think back to that experience, it was so pivotal. If I had walked in and been treated the way I have later been treated in different shops, I don’t know if I would have had been where I am now, when I walked in, I was treated with so much respect. And they the shop, you know, it was all it was all white males in the shop, but they decided to treat me like they were just so psyched that I wanted to get a bike from them and that I was going to join, like their crew kind of they made me feel like I was joining their club in a way that made me feel like I was already a part of the bike community before I even got the bike in.
Heather Mason 16:27
I got I have like literally goosebumps right now. Like
Kailey Kornhauser 16:29
they just blazing and then they continue to be amazing. Like I came in I got a flat tire the first day I got the bike and I brought it in and they were like devastated for me. And like fix it immediately. We’re so sad that that had happened on my first day with the bike and then from then on like if I brought the bike in and needed something pretty quickly they would they just always made me feel like it was I would didn’t have a stupid request, like nothing was too low level for for them. And I just like still I feel like that gave me the courage and confidence to be like, yeah, I’m a cyclist like these guys think I am and they’re like, so cool, you know. So I think that goes a really long way. Now, I mean, I can share some more negative experiences I’ve had, like going into a shop, I was being given a bike by specialized so it was a free bike, but I needed to get it through a specialized dealer. I went into a specialized bike shop or bike shop that sells specialized, the guy said, How did you get specialized to give you a free bike? And, and so that wasn’t great. You know, that made me feel that kind of the opposite. Like, oh, this guy doesn’t think I’m like in the bike community, and has like seeing my body and made an assumption about me. Not being a cyclist. You know, I didn’t look like a person that’s that specialized would be giving a bike to the same shop, the bike was being given to me to go on a very long backpacking trip. And they all knew that in the end yet when I got to the store to pick the bike up, the guy passing it over to me decided to like explain to me what bikepacking was. It turned out he had only gone on one overnight trip before like that was that was it. And so I was like, well, don’t you think of specialized as giving me a bike I’ve probably been on a couple bike pick.
Heather Mason 18:27
You’re like walking in there feeling like, I’m going into pick up my bike, they’re gonna get so excited to see who this person
Kailey Kornhauser 18:33
is, is getting this bike. And then it was just like a total letdown. You know, and those are two individuals. That wasn’t that’s not the shop at all. It was two different, you know, two individuals that I mean, if that had been my first experience, I would have felt crushed because you go in thinking they’re going to be excited for you. And then if they are, it’s amazing. And if they aren’t, it’s really tough, I think and even if it wasn’t because of my body size, or because I’m a woman, it felt like it was that’s how I left I left feeling like wow, they think I’m not a biker because I’m like a fat woman, you know? Yeah. And no, anyways, I that’s a long winded answer to your question. Just it does have a huge difference. You know, how you walk in and how you’re treated has a huge difference on what ends up happening.
Heather Mason 19:23
Yeah, and I guess this is a good time to throw out like this conversation can be uncomfortable. You know, it can be uncomfortable for people to talk about body weight, or age or anything. It just makes us as humans uncomfortable, right? So we don’t want to be inconsiderate. Like, we don’t want to say the wrong thing. And I mean, we’re in a live recording today. So I’m just gonna be like my authentic self, but I might not say the right thing and I’m going to apologize to you to our listeners to anyone. I have my best intentions here. But you know, it is something that we that I want to make sure that I phrase everything appropriately and I’m hopeful that today that this conversation And you can give retailers some of the tools maybe to do that, too. So I just want to say that Kaley, like I’m trying my best here. But it’s hard. It’s an uncomfortable situation to talk about things that I don’t know we normally avoid, right? Like,
Kailey Kornhauser 20:14
we’re all like learning. This is a, I think for a lot of people. This is like the first time they’re ever talking about body size, in like this type of way, that isn’t as an insult or like under hush breath, you know, just talking openly about it. It’s uncomfortable, because we all have a body, we all have feelings about our bodies, we all want our bodies to look or do different things than they do. I understand that. And I, and anybody who’s trying, I think, you know, we can’t, we can get our feelings hurt. Sure. But we’re all learning together. That’s kind of the point I don’t get it perfect all the time, you’ll hear me say like people in larger bodies are bigger people when I refer to other people, and then I use the word fat. When I refer to myself, that word fat has a lot of negative connotations. And people are pretty uncomfortable using it, I would never use the word fat to describe somebody else that hasn’t already invited me to do that, unless they’ve used the word and identified that I should be using it to that word carry so much with it, that it’s I think it’s at this point probably inappropriate to call someone else fat without their explicit permission. But I think it’s okay to start talking about bigger people and you know, people in larger bodies and people in extended or plus sizes, objectively because we’ve been we’ll talk about it in this conversation, we’ve we’ve got to talk about it and be more open about it to make biking, more inclusive and safe and welcoming.
Heather Mason 21:47
Yeah, I was gonna say we’re gonna get into it. And I have questions about considerations for safety, that we have to really talk about that if we don’t, we’re actually doing harm, but like, Alright, so let’s just get into it for retailers who are listening who are ready to expand the definition of cyclists and open the doors to all diversity and Riders of all sizes? In your opinion, how could they make the retail store more accepting to invite larger bodies in Are there areas to focus on like messaging staff training product mix. So that’s what I’m thinking. Those
Kailey Kornhauser 22:18
are the three big things, I think with messaging, messaging and culture. I think the idea of making sure that there’s pictures or staff members and larger bodies like something that visually indicates to people in larger bodies that they are invited into the space, I don’t think people like consciously know that they need that. But if you go to a website, like a clothing website, as a person in a larger body, if you don’t see other people in large bodies on the website, you assume that there’s no clothes in your size. And the same thing is true for physical retail stores. I know not all bike stores really specialize in providing clothing, but even having pictures of people who aren’t necessarily like athlete looking people. And I know that a lot of stores don’t aren’t in control of the photos that they received to post in their stores, but trying to pick the ones that look a little bit more like an everyday person, if there is a picture of someone in a larger body like featuring that that photo in your store window. That type of thing invites people in. I also think, again, product mix is pretty tricky, because it is not up to retail stores to provide the physical equipment and clothing that accommodates people in larger bodies, it’s really up to the companies that make those products. And it’s going to take a while before we see some of the changes on bike weight limits and extended size clothing. Once we do see those changes, though, you know, and it might be a few years. Even if you aren’t a store that features a lot of clothing, like having just one or two options in that extended size. I mean, I’ve never been able to go to a small bike shop and see an article of clothing in my size. So I have to exclusively shop online, which isn’t the end of the world. But I’d love to buy the same product at a bike shop and support my local bike shop. So I think when possible, you know, having a product mix is great. But also if you can’t do that, which the reality is right now, there’s not that many products that you can have in your store. knowing where to point people online probably doesn’t feel great as a small bike shop to point people to an online retailer. But knowing you know, oh, here’s where there is an online store for people in larger bodies for bike shorts. It feels really good then like Oh, they thought about me at least even if they can’t have the product here in the store. And then I think the biggest difference is in staff training and learning how to talk about body size and bikes. Talk about weight in a way that is objective and makes people safer, but not, you know, feel offended is really key. And then just, you know, in general trying to cultivate a store atmosphere that is welcoming, which is going to serve all of us. I’m sure you all talk about this.
Heather Mason 25:17
Yeah, no, this is some some great little nuggets that you just put in there. And you know, thinking back to the apparel, and when I used to have a store, and you know, I’d have a woman come in, and I wanted to help, I literally want to help her. But there was not many options for mobile, anything I had or even had access to. But yeah, a small win was finding something online and directing her there. But we did it together. So she was still my customer. And she knew I had her best intentions at heart.
Kailey Kornhauser 25:42
Absolutely. Or if you’re able to, like order it through the store, I would 100% agree to order something through a store if someone did that, you know, what, the extra mile? Yeah, and showed me that product. So it’s okay not to have it in store. I think right now people understand, and especially this year, and the next few years, probably it’s going to be hard to get physical products into stores.
Heather Mason 26:04
And then for staff training, I mean, maybe a good start is to watch our video when we’re done. Alright, so Kelly, I’m thinking about, and I don’t know if this is appropriate to compare, but just me being me. I’m thinking about Nika, and like, has done so much to bring kids into cycling. And then I’m thinking about all the work that’s been done to bring women you know, we have women’s rights, women’s workshops. I mean, is it wrong to do something special for larger bodies? Or is that a way that retailers could say we’re welcoming? And we’re accepting? Or is it just group rides? I don’t know. You’re looking at me like, I’m crazy. So I don’t
Kailey Kornhauser 26:38
know. I think it’s such a good question. It’s something I don’t know if I have the answer to I think in bigger cities, having a ride, you know, group ride, like specially for people in larger bodies might work really well, in my town of like, 50,000. I’m thinking like, what that work. But I think there’s like so many other things you can do to invite people in larger bodies to spaces that have already been created, like a women’s specific space, making sure that you, if you’re doing group rides, those group rides have clearly posted routes, like miles per hour that are stuck to no drop options, waiting at the top of hills for people, not assuming that size of rider indicates experience, those types of things that you publish, like, be pretty forward with the fact as a as a shop, if you’re doing a group ride, I think you can be pretty forward with the fact that you’re doing that you’re being so explicit about those things to invite people of all abilities and sizes and ages say that you can be explicit, okay? I don’t know if it will be possible for many shops to create like an affinity space for people in larger bodies, because it might be feel a little scary for people, if you are a shop that has people in larger bodies that work there are people in your community in larger bodies, putting them in leadership roles, having them lead a group ride, or, you know, a shop in town here is having me give a talk about a local bikepacking route. I don’t know this to be true. But if I was a person, you know, an attendee, and I saw, oh, this person in a larger body is giving the talk, I would think, Wow, this place, accepts people in larger bodies, if they’re putting one of us up for a speaking position, you know, in terms of like, guides, and this is you didn’t ask this explicitly, but we are working on putting together like a resource guide of different bike shops that have been like explicitly friendly to people in larger bodies. We’d love if people are listening for them to send their content, you know, their contact in because we get questions all the time from people in larger bodies, saying, hey, what shop Should I go to? And of course, I don’t know all the shops in the country near the world. Just knowing where to send people where, you know, I’m sure many shops that are friendly to people in larger bodies won’t be on our list. But just knowing like that there’s some that have said like, hey, you’re welcome here. I think it goes a long way.
Heather Mason 29:07
I love that. And yeah, so anyone listening who wants to get on that list will give Kaylee’s information at the end. You can also send it to me and I’ll make sure it gets there. And
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Heather Mason 29:29
we as an industry we as retailers, we have staff, staff employees, we have the ability to really put someone on the right track to make the experience like we said and I think it’s also bad to have the assumption that larger body people aren’t as strong like I got my butt kicked by some larger body. We’re not saying that the cyclist is slower or not capable. They have a larger body and need specific equipment. So let’s talk about that assumption. So I’m nervous. Sometimes some people might walk into a bicycle store and maybe the staff or the employees think that person is not a cyclist, or maybe they need a mountain bike and not a road bike, or, you know, they just make an assumption, how can we like, Is there any practices that you would suggest for employees to steer clear of, or maybe focus on to be best in this case?
Kailey Kornhauser 30:19
I mean, I think it’s a rule in general, like don’t assume people’s ability level, based on like, how they look, or even like, what bike they ride, we make a lot of assumptions. I’m guilty of this about people, the type of biking they do, the experience they have based on what we see. And you know, I can’t tell you the number of shop group rides I’ve gone on where people will be like, Oh, is this your first group ride? Or like, Are you just getting into cycling? sponsored? Like, that type of comment doesn’t make you feel like part of the community, you know? So I think immediately trying to like, check those initial assumptions we make. But then also, I might have you like, restate the question. But I think this answers it like starting to talk about weight pretty openly when we’re working with customers? And maybe I’ll have you restate the question.
Heather Mason 31:09
But that’s kind of what I’m what I’m thinking what I’m what I’m asking. And maybe I didn’t phrase it properly, either. I’m really just kind of all over a little bit. But I don’t want retailers or staff members to assume that this person is not a cyclist, or maybe pointed in the wrong direction, or, or be afraid to talk about it. Like, I feel like the only time that we’re able to talk about weight, and we feel comfortable about it is like when we’re talking about like shock or forks that Oh, yeah. How can we like what’s the best practice? Like, don’t be afraid Don’t make assumptions, right? Like,
Kailey Kornhauser 31:41
yeah. And you mentioned pointing people making assumptions and pointing people towards a certain bike. So many people in larger bodies come to me after buying, like a hybrid fitness bike that they were pointed towards, probably based on some assumptions made about them. And then that, that turns out, it wasn’t the right bike for them, you know, like they were, they were hoping to get into road biking or gravel biking, or, or needed a full suspension mountain bike, but they ended up with like a fitness hybrid. Nothing wrong with the fitness hybrid, it probably works for a ton of people in larger bodies, using a certain bike as a catch all. And I know one of the reasons we do this is because some bikes have higher weight limits than others. being upfront, just as you would be about any other aspect of a bike, when you’re selling it to someone on the store floor, telling them every other stat about it, you also want to talk about and you already do probably what the frame is made out of. And at that point, I think that’s when you can start to say, and here we’ve got a carbon bike like the weight limits on these tend to be lower, it’s a good opportunity to then offer the fact of what is the structural weight limit of this bike, knowing those weight limits? I mean, I don’t think many people, most customers aren’t aware that bikes have weight limits, I would, I would say I didn’t know until many years into riding a bike that my bikes had weight limits, and I exceeded some of those weight limits. So being pretty open with that, while you’re stating every other fact about it, you know, what’s the tire clearance? What components that does it have on it? And what’s the structural weight limit, like just including it in the information you’re providing? making it known, you know, if this bike doesn’t work for you, we also have a steel bike or an aluminum bike that’s gonna have a higher weight limit or have these other features to it. So instead of asking the person like outright, what do you weigh, and then telling them what bikes they that worked for them? I think it’s more natural and makes more sense to offer up facts about the bike in an organic way. And then let the customer say, Oh, you know what, that carbon road bike doesn’t work for me? Do you have a bike made of a different material that similar to this and then finding what works for them in a really similar way that we do shocks? You know, like, the way that we talk about shocks, we usually give like an example of a rider or say, here’s the weight range, you know, you tell me what works for you. So we we know some of this stuff, but it’s just entering it into the bike purchasing conversation.
Heather Mason 34:18
Yeah, I’m also thinking that a retailer shouldn’t be scrambling when a larger bodied writer comes in, like they should have already done some research so they know what products they can suggest. Right? And to be educated as well, right? Like, yeah,
Kailey Kornhauser 34:32
it’s not easy to find the weight limit in the handbook. Like it’s not, it’s pretty hidden. So it takes a little bit of time, but even having like a chart just on the table ready to go, and maybe you don’t know it, obviously, you’re not going to probably know off the top of your head, like all the weight limits for the bikes in your shop. But being able to like quickly reference it takes the pressure off of that because it’s gonna be it’s gonna be a little bit uncomfortable. It’s gonna be more uncomfortable if it takes a long time to figure out what the wait. So the faster like the more prep you can do the better.
Heather Mason 35:09
Yeah, I feel like we like people should be ready, especially with like wheels and frames and just knowing what they have access to, because there’s nothing like just standing there being like, Oh, I don’t know, but I love the way you presented that retailers should should present it like we have this option. And this usually works for riders and this weight limit, and we and then you know, kind of steer the direction because the rider is going to tell the shop at that point which like they are leaning towards and where they need to be.
Kailey Kornhauser 35:36
Yeah, without having to disclose like a specific way. And yeah, bringing up I think you brought up wheels, a regular everyday customer is not going to know that the weight, even if they know the weight limit of the bike, it’s even harder to find the weight limit of wheels. So they’re definitely not going to know the weight limit of the wheel set on the bike they’re looking at, like knowing that and being willing to say, hey, something we can do is swap these or, you know, hey, we build custom wheels that cost this much. And that will help increase the strength of your bike talking about here’s what this shot can handle, being honest about the limitations of a bike, because what’s gonna happen is like, either a person’s gonna be uncomfortable or worse, they could be unsafe, not talking about it is a problem. I have never had weight come up in a bike shop. And it definitely should have.
Heather Mason 36:30
I feel like when the persons in purchasing their new bike are talking about it, that’s the time to have these honest conversations not to shy away because we’re uncomfortable, but we want the rider and I would think that that I mean, I know me when I’m buying a bike, someone who puts extra effort in to be like, you should really look at this, this would be good for you. That’s what I want to know about it not after
Kailey Kornhauser 36:50
right? Yeah, not after you bought it or broke a bunch of spokes. The other thing I think is less less known by people in smaller bodies, including people who work at bike shops is like there are components on a bike that don’t have a weight limit necessarily like brakes or pedals that tend to get worn through more quickly with larger riders. So there’s no like hard and fast rule to that but being able to just reference that and then let the person know like, what to look for. It took me probably three years of going through brake pads very quickly and people telling me I was breaking wrong before I realized I wasn’t breaking wrong. I was just much heavier than the people I was riding with. And so I was going through them faster. Not a huge deal at all. I just needed to replace them more, you know more quickly and since then it’s never been a problem. pedals the same thing just know you know, let them know they rely on the pedals. Kaley, yeah, the bearings will and if you get you know different types of pedals You know, I’ve been since then I go for more expensive pedals I don’t have pedal clicks I don’t have problems with the pedals. But I kept buying cheap cheaper nylon pedals because I wanted to buy the cheaper option and then I was going through them a lot faster now I never replaced my pedals now that I’ve gone for the more expensive option so knowing that up front would have saved me money in the long term.
Heather Mason 38:19
Kelly I’m just thinking okay, we have retailers who are trying to be like a website designers keep the door open salespeople mechanics, I mean, they’re wearing so many hats these days. Now I’m asking them or asking them to make a catalog or to know what products to bring in? Is there like a resource that exists online? I hate to ask you that like, what if they want to know what are the best products that are out there or where they find the best
Kailey Kornhauser 38:42
I would say clothing I could give you the brands like off the top of my head components. Obviously we made the film with Shimano and we’re working with them still and I know a few things that have worked well for me but we don’t have a written resource guide it’s something that’s on our to do list to come out with because yeah, it’s we cannot ask retailers to also take this on you know, we need to have readily available things and we’re also I should say at the same time encouraging like companies like manufacturers to be to publish weight limits in much easier to find places and also to make their bikes have higher weight limits in general so a lot of these things you know, you can’t fault the bike shop the it’s not easy information to find if it’s even there. All that’s to say I could if if it makes sense list a few brands
Heather Mason 39:32
I know do some favorites. Let us you just give me like a couple of favorite things is that Oh
Kailey Kornhauser 39:36
yeah, yeah, for clothing. I Well, I’m an ambassador for machines for freedom. So I’ll just say that but I also really do love their clothing up to a three XL, which is pretty good. Pearl Izumi has a quite a lot of products in the three XL I also really like and then our sports is a triathlon company. So I know a lot of bike shops probably don’t carry them but they do go to a six Sell. So if you’re looking to have clothing for people in a really large range of sizes, our sports is the one making the largest size padded bike short. And all of those brands are great. And then I like you know, I ride in flats. I like the Shimano, like x t pedals. I have on all my bikes now and haven’t had problems a year in, which is a lot longer than I usually go on a pair of pedals. I like the specialized mythic saddle the best, I think, well, I say saddle, I
Heather Mason 40:34
know, we talked about that. We can debunk this
Kailey Kornhauser 40:40
book, I’m sure people have bike shops know this. But people in larger bodies that I talked to often assume that because they have a larger, but if they do that they need a wider saddle and often like a super gel saddle. And then they like a beach cruiser saddle with like a inch of gel. And it’s like that, then they’re saying, Why does my butt hurts like, well, that is a ton of friction, it’s uncomfortable. Anytime you’re working with a larger body cyclist, if you could tell them, like the size of your behind does not represent the size that your saddle should be encouraging them to get a saddle measurement like that is gonna make people make or break people’s first few times on a bike. And if they, I mean, people leave biking as a sport, because they can’t figure out the right settles, getting getting people into a correct size with less padding. That is like my life mission.
Heather Mason 41:39
hard. I remember when I used to be a fitter, and you know, I would have a larger body writer and I’m like you This is the size style that you need. And they’d be like, no, that’s a little toy, I’m gonna break.
Kailey Kornhauser 41:52
Trust me, I’m sad doesn’t have weight limits and the rails break for larger riders. So finding the right saddle can be a challenge. But saddles tend to have less restrictive weight limits than bikes or wheels do and getting somebody on to the right side saddle is just so crucial to them having a good time. So I can offer my favorite saddles, but everybody’s different. And I think communicating like but size does not equal saddle size is so key.
Heather Mason 42:21
I would love to see weight limits posted and you know, more catalogs and more product descriptions online, I think it would be such an asset and really help our industry so much. So I’m going to be a big advocate for that. So bringing up the saddle brings up another consideration that I’m thinking about is just fit general fit comfort on the bike, if I can recall it, I think I used to like maybe set the handlebars upright a little bit more, you know, I wasn’t bending over. Any tips for bicycle retailers, were maybe working with a larger bodied rider to get them fit properly.
Kailey Kornhauser 42:54
Yeah, I see q factor come up a lot. You know, like with the pedals, if somebody’s got a wider hip, I think that can help a lot. As you mentioned, getting the handlebars a bit more upright, you know, I ride in a pretty aggressive position on drop bars, actually. And so I don’t know if it’s a hard and fast rule. But if you think like it’s pretty practical that a person in a larger body might carry some extra weight in their stomach area. And then that aggressive leaned over positions gonna put their stomach in a position where their leg on the up pedal stroke hits their stomach, that can be very uncomfortable for some people and painful for me, it’s not so I don’t know, if it’s a rule for everybody, you know, I read like that, and I like it. But I know, I would say maybe I’m the exception because more people in larger bodies, I find tend to like an H bar even like almost like a beach cruiser which I have a bike like that. And I do like it or flat bar bikes, you know, it’s great. It’s like if you can find a bike, if somebody comes in in their larger body person looking for gravel bike, maybe offering a bike that can do a flat bar and a gravel bar or and a drop bar, like letting them have the choice of being able to swap out would be really cool, I think because I think people want to start up right if they’re in a larger body and then find their way, maybe, or maybe never find their way into to a drop, but
Heather Mason 44:24
I’m totally with you. And I even remember like some beginner cyclists who would come into the store, they wanted a gravel bike or a road bike, it was the right bike for them. They were really nervous about being down there. Yes, the drops, and they wanted to start on a flat bar. And then so yeah, the awesome thing is we can modify these bikes.
Kailey Kornhauser 44:42
And as someone gets more fit or gets more into the sport or their body becomes more flexible, you know that it’s a time that we can do that. The other another thing I’ll mention is that uncertain I noticed on mountain bikes with the geometry. This isn’t something we can fix in a bike shop, but If you’ve got a more like squished bike frame, then the person’s body when they get off the saddle might have a hard time fitting between the saddle and the bars. And that happens to me on my mountain bike that my bodies kind of too wide front to back. What’s nice on my mountain bike is like, I have a dropper. So I just dropped the seat and it’s fine. So even offering that to somebody like, hey, yeah, you might have feel a little uncomfortable with the seat up, right? Like, remember, you can drop it before you get off. And then it’s not not a problem, you know. So offering little modifications like that. But in general, I have found that bike fit is pretty similar. Other you know, other than those things, we mentioned,
Heather Mason 45:43
big takeaways for retailers not to be afraid to have the conversation like to make up a special way or, you know, grow with the rider as they grow. Or, like, if we flip, you know, there’s a lot of people who listen to this podcast, who are in the industry, who are just cycling fans, and they listen, and we might have some people listening, you know, maybe who are larger bodied riders, maybe who are afraid to go into a bicycle store, because they don’t want to get the look or you know, they’re just uncomfortable. Any tips for them maybe, on how they could make their first how they can get themselves to go visit their local retailer, if they’re maybe afraid, and they’ve been buying everything online?
Kailey Kornhauser 46:20
Yeah, I think if you have choices of shops, you know, I live in a town with a lot of bike shops. And so, you know, I asked around, like, where do you go and and I go to the shop that meets my needs. Not that not that one shops better than the other, it’s just some shops are for some types of cyclists and others are for other types of cyclists, you know, and, and for me, I do better at kind of an all around shop, that’s a little bit more casual, less race oriented. I’m really grateful that those other shops exist, but like they’re not, they’re not bad for me to go to. But there’s just one that feels more comfy. So I try to recommend people kind of ask around, but if you’ve only got one shop, I think remember one that if somebody is uncomfortable with you, or are unsure how to treat you, like it’s not because of you, it’s like, they don’t know how to serve you. And they’re just learning to, I would say that I’ve been into many, many bike shops. And I’ve really only had the two bad experiences that I mentioned earlier in this this chat. So overwhelmingly positive experiences, and finding the right people in a bike shop will like open up your whole world of what’s possible on bikes. So finding the right people, and the right bike shop for me just makes me feel awesome. Like if something goes wrong with my bike, I it’s a no brainer where I take it and who I you know who I see. And like building that relationship with the shop is just so awesome. So I understand why people are scared. But I would say that that’s kind of what I would offer. Just go for it because the benefits outweigh like, there are some serious benefits. You can’t fix everything at home. My husband is a previous bike mechanic and we can’t fix everything at home. So
Heather Mason 48:13
always on the bikes. What about like, cycling community for larger bodied riders? Like is there Facebook groups? Is there stuff online? I should have looked? I didn’t sorry, I just
Kailey Kornhauser 48:26
totally Yeah, we’ve got to film we we’ve created a Facebook page called all bodies on bikes, a Facebook group that anybody can join people of all sizes, it is awesome. And I don’t say that because we made it we do very little. It’s just an amazing group of people that post their rides and other people hype them up, or they ask questions and people it’s like the most positive online community I’ve ever seen. With no thanks to us. We did nothing other than like make the page. Anyone can find
Heather Mason 48:57
like if a bicycle retailer because I’m sure they talk about prime.
Kailey Kornhauser 49:00
Yes, anyone should. And we really encourage the bike retailers bike industry to join so they can see the types of questions people are asking and the type of people who are riding because, I mean, I’ve honestly been, it has taught me that just in general the diversity of types of writing that are that’s happening and what people are doing and the types of bikes they’re on. It’s grown since the film came out, I think it’s well over 1500 members now, we also have an Instagram page, also called all bodies on bikes. And then there are a few other Facebook groups that we’re not in charge of. There’s one called fat bottomed girls, that’s just for women. And similarly positive community. So there’s, there’s a couple out there, our personal Instagram pages, we try to like hype other people up too. So you know, we’re working on kind of building out what the online community looks like and then at the same time, as COVID hopefully is like getting less and less prevalent. We can be doing More in person rides and traveling around or having other people who live in different places host group rides. So those are the communities that we’re aware of like we kind of started this work because we didn’t see a lot of online community in this space for people in larger body. So it’s growing, but it’s just, it’s just getting started to.
Heather Mason 50:20
Yeah, I love this. So is the close. Is it a closed Facebook group or is it open one? It’s like you have to get accepted, but everybody gets accepted. Yeah. Yeah, no scammers, scammers, but any retailers listening, and yeah, we’re all buddies on bikes, join that group, you can just I’m sure there’s gonna be so much you can learn in there. You know, I’m thinking about what you said about traveling around. And you know, as we’re able to, I think about all the ambassadors we’ve seen over the years for products, right. And it’s all the typical racer, right, so what, like, I would love for you to come to like a retailer and you know, have an event. How cool would that be? So? Yeah, any awesome, fantastic cycling advice that you’ve been given throughout your career that you want to share with our listeners and viewers?
Kailey Kornhauser 51:11
Yeah, I think it comes from outside of the cycling world. And from this space of like, intuitive eating and joyful movement, it’s called, it’s like, kind of a practice of nutritionists and, and fitness folks, the idea that we should move our bodies in ways that feel good and bring us joy. That’s, that’s what we tried to center in the film. I hope we did that. That’s what I tried to do when I bike now is to center joy and, and focus on the joy of riding a bike rather than some of the other aspects of the sport that we focused on that are great, too. But I think joy speaks to more people than going fast or doing read stuff or trying really hard.
Heather Mason 51:56
I’m with you. And that just being out there, right, just the sense of the journey and and what I can do for us. Yeah. Okay, so if you could sum it up, like say this was our guide to the industry, we’ve been talking about NBDA, we’ve been talking about bicycle retailer excellence, and what that looks like in a lot of different categories. But we haven’t really talked about what excellence looks like in the needs of like addressing the needs of larger body customers. So if you could sum that up, what would excellence and retail look like in this category?
Kailey Kornhauser 52:25
I think the key is to treat everybody with respect and to invite everyone into the biking community. And then like the cherry on top would be being ready with the right advice and and then even further having the right products in store.
Heather Mason 52:43
Yeah, so that’s what we need. That’s our homework retailers and listeners, we need to make sure we have the products or at least the knowledge, like we said very earlier in the conversation I loved how you gave the the nugget of like having photos of larger bodied riders and letting people know that you’re accepting to all cyclists, whatever that means. Um, I know you spoke a little bit about Shimano, and machines for freedom. And I think another one of your sponsors is Kona. It’s like wonderful for them to support you. And I’m very thankful for them stepping up for our industry to make this possible. What is next? Like any big plans, can you give us anything?
Kailey Kornhauser 53:23
I wish I had more to give you I have so many weddings to attend that got in the way of biking this summer. We Marley and I are going to be hosting some group rides and some overnight backpacking trips are just really exciting later this summer and early into the fall. And you know, in the next year, I’m hoping to finish my PhD and then write my big goals, the great divide, and maybe the Oregon timber trail. So those are my those are the big trips I’ve got on my radar, but right now, they’re probably a year away.
Heather Mason 53:58
I love that. I love that. So I know you have a website. I think it’s awesome for listeners, if you want to visit her website, it’s Kaylee kornhauser.com. That’s KAILEYKRNHAUS er, calm. And, you know, we spoke about a lot of things like that, you know, Kaylee that we could have gotten into a lot more specific. So products, brands, tips. Can retailers reach out to you? Are you okay? If someone wanted to send you an email or?
Kailey Kornhauser 54:26
Absolutely, always happy to answer questions, one, we can do workshops, whatever is needed for your space and for your stores.
Heather Mason 54:35
I think that’s amazing. Like I said, I want to continue to share the work you’ve done. I’ll share the Shimano video with everyone I come across. I hope retailers listen to the podcast today. And they take away some really good good little tips on how to make their retail location more accepting and open. Kaley, we just thank you so much for your support of MBDA. And you know your willingness to come on and chat with me and congratulations again on the marriage.
Kailey Kornhauser 54:59
Thanks So much for having me in for this platform and for folks listening thanks for for listening.
Heather Mason 55:06
Well, I will catch up with you later. Again. If you have not visited her website, please check it out. Reach out to me with any specific questions. I can also get them over to Kaylee, and thanks to Shimano and Kona and machines for freedom for the support of Haley to keep her going. I guess I’ll chat with you later. We’re gonna go plan and make a plan to go ride right? Yep. See you later. Bye now.
NBDA 55:28
This has been bicycle retail radio by the National bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership, and member benefits, join us at nbda.com
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